Transcript

 Show Date: May 2, 2001, Wednesday

Show: TALK OF THE NATION (3:00 PM ET)

Trans. Title: ANALYSIS: All-Women's Colleges

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JUAN WILLIAMS, host:

It's TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Juan Williams.

Wellesley College celebrates its 125th anniversary this spring. It's one of the most distinguished of the nation's 74 all-female institutions, institutions that generally are celebrating a surge in recognition and popularity. Although the number of women's colleges has dropped dramatically in the last 40 years, by nearly 75 percent, the ones that survive remain more vigorous than ever. The number of applicants to women's colleges has increased and enrollment is up by at least 15 percent, according to the Washington-based Women's College Coalition.

Wellesley has an extraordinary group of graduates to recommend it to any ambitious young high school senior. Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright is a graduate. So, too, is former first lady and now New York Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, and so was the first black woman judge, as well as journalists Diane Sawyer and Cokie Roberts, as well as novelist and film director Nora Ephron.

Many educators argue that attending a single-sex institution such as Wellesley ensures that women will have their professors' full attention. It also ensures that women will hold leadership positions on campus. Women's colleges, it's argued, help build self-esteem that will carry a young woman into boardrooms, medical schools and anywhere else she chooses to go. Several studies show that graduates of all-women's colleges earn graduate degrees at twice the rate of women graduating from coed schools. Women at all-women schools are twice as likely to major in math and science as women in coed schools. They also have an 'old girls' network of alumni [sic] to call upon as they begin their professional careers.

But in an era when women make up the majority of college students across the nation, 55 percent, some critics are asking: Why is there a need for all-women schools? And why are all-male schools derided as bastions of gender segregation while all-female schools are celebrated? In the 21st century haven't we raised girls who don't need the extra shoring up that comes with women's colleges? Haven't we raised boys who are more open-minded and supportive of their female counterparts?

Join the conversation. Our number, (800) 989-8255. It's (800) 989-TALK. Our e mail address is totn@npr.org. Our guests this hour are Diana Chapman Walsh, president of Wellesley College. She's at member station WBUR in Boston.

Welcome to TALK OF THE NATION, Ms. Walsh.

Ms. DIANA CHAPMAN WALSH (President, Wellesley College): Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

WILLIAMS: Congratulations, by the way, on the anniversary. I think that's terrific.

Ms. WALSH: Thank you. We've been having great celebrations. It's been terrific fun.

WILLIAMS: All...

Ms. WALSH: We've had--many of the people you've mentioned were back on campus for a great symposium just last weekend, including Madeleine Albright and Hillary Clinton. Also, Linda Wertheimer--you didn't mention one of your own--an NPR person.

WILLIAMS: Well, also with us today is Colton Johnson. He's an English professor and dean at Vassar College. He joins us by phone from Poughkeepsie, New York.

Welcome to TALK OF THE NATION, Colton Johnson.

Dean COLTON JOHNSON (Professor, Vassar College): Thanks very much. It's a pleasure to be there.

WILLIAMS: And also with us is Suzanne Adams. She's the incoming chair for Mills College Board of Trustees and a member of the class of '48. She's at KPFA in Berkeley, California.

Welcome to TALK OF THE NATION, Ms. Adams.

Ms. SUZANNE ADAMS (Incoming Chair, Board of Trustees, Mills College): Thank you, Juan. It's lovely to be with you.

WILLIAMS: Let me start with you, Ms. Walsh, and ask a little bit about the numbers. If I was to try to make the case for sending my daughter to a woman's college today, what would you as the president of Wellesley say to me?

Ms. WALSH: Well, I wouldn't start with the numbers. I'd start with the story of the kind of education that your daughter would get at a place like Wellesley College. At a place like Wellesley, the whole reason for the existence of the institution would be to make sure that she as a woman could achieve her full potential, that she could try out every possible domain of knowledge and every possible leadership opportunity, that she could stretch her wings in all sorts of ways. The institution exists for no other reason but to educate women and to give them not equal opportunity, but every opportunity.

It's parallel in some ways to a liberal arts college in the sense that a liberal arts college exists only for the education of undergraduates, so that some of the competition that one would find at a large university for time with the most prestigious faculty in their laboratories and so on isn't a problem if you're an undergraduate at a place like--I know you went to Haverford.

WILLIAMS: That's true.

Ms. WALSH: All the action at Haverford is for the undergraduates. There aren't any graduate students with whom the undergraduates have to compete. That's...

WILLIAMS: But I'm thinking to myself as you're speaking the president of any college, and especially any coed college, would make the same case. I thought that the argument might be that you have smaller classes, that you have a higher proportion, of course, of women who go on to positions of leadership in business and academia, in media--you mentioned Linda Wertheimer.

Ms. WALSH: Well, there are two--right. Well, there are two arguments. So one argument is we're all about undergraduates, and that's true, you're right, at Amherst and Williams and Swarthmore and Haverford. But the second one is we're all about women. We exist--our faculty are there--our faculty are successful only if they do a terrific job of educating young women who will go out and be successful as physicists and scientists and computer scientists. And the proportion of students who major in fields that are considered traditionally male fields are much higher at women's colleges than they are at coed institutions. Our Economics Department is one of our strongest departments. And students who want to try out a field like that and aren't sure that they're going to be successful at it get a whole lot of hands-on mentoring and attention.

One of our famous alumnae is our first astronaut, a woman named Pamela Melroy, who graduated in 1983. She just piloted the space shuttle up to the space station, the last flight before the space station was manned. And she was back on campus for this birthday celebration, this anniversary celebration, and told a story about her struggle to master physics. It wasn't easy for her at first. She's absolutely convinced and said publicly that if she had gone, for example, to the Air Force Academy or to a large university, she believes that she would have been lost in the shuffle, wouldn't have been able to get the kind of mentoring that she got at Wellesley that got her on beyond this threshold where she needed to develop the intellectual confidence to go on and be an astronaut, which had been her lifelong dream.

WILLIAMS: Let me bring Suzanne Adams, incoming chair for Mills College Board of Trustees, into the conversation. Ms. Adams, as I understand it, you graduated from Mills back in the '48--I believe, class of '48. Is the fact that there has been a 75 percent attrition in women's college over the last 40 years evidence to you of the changing demand and nature of education in this country or do you believe that there's as much need now as there was back in '48 for a woman's college?

Ms. ADAMS: I don't know if I would say as much, but I think that all the things that Diana said about Wellesley and women's colleges, some of which are about women's colleges in general, are still true, and that one of the problems is that we continue to have at the pre-college level very different attention of teachers to students, males and females, so that men came in already with a level of energy and activity that is very high to a college, and that's who teachers in the classroom attend to.

When the woman who became an astronaut says she never would have mastered it, what she means is nobody ever would have acted as though she had the capability to pursue mathematics when it was difficult for her. And I think that this is something that women's colleges, by devoting all their attention to women, in a sense they're countering the effects of earlier educational experience and allowing women to realize their potential that otherwise would simply not be realized, certainly not in that form.

WILLIAMS: Well, then why do most American women not go to women's colleges? As I mentioned earlier, 55 percent of the people now enrolled in America's colleges and universities are women, and obviously most don't go to women's colleges.

Ms. ADAMS: Well, I think there are a few things. One is the perceived obstacles to private colleges, which all women's colleges are. Another is that women don't really understand what has happened to them as they go through schooling. And if your friends are going to the local university or to some particular college that's been popular among people in your town, then you tend to want to go where you're friends are going. And I don't think that students think about what the differences should be. Some students do. Students who have had any experience in a single-sex school know the difference between what happened to them there and what happens to them in a coed school. And it's...

WILLIAMS: Let me bring Colton Johnson into the conversation now. Colton is the dean at Vassar College. And Vassar went from being one of the seven sisters, all-women's colleges, to a school that's now coed. When did that take place, Mr. Johnson?

Dean JOHNSON: That took place by a faculty--or by a trustee vote in 1968. The first men came in 1969 and the first freshman class came in in '70 and graduated in '74.

WILLIAMS: Are you a graduate of Vassar?

Dean JOHNSON: No, I'm afraid I couldn't have passed the physical in those days. I got out of college in the 1960s.

WILLIAMS: So tell me, what's been the experience at Vassar? And by the way, do you still consider Vassar to be one of the seven sisters?

Dean JOHNSON: Well, we still are very proud of our heritage. In fact, it was a Vassar president back at the beginning of the century who proposed the notion of the Seven College Conference, as it's officially called. And we're delighted to attend the annual meetings. Diana and I get together with our colleagues annually. And we still consider ourselves as having many kinds of common concerns and issues.

Ms. WALSH: We're siblings now instead of sisters.

Dean JOHNSON: Yes, that's--we're good friends.

WILLIAMS: Well, I was thinking as I was listening to Diana and to Suzanne Adams that their case is it builds self-esteem, it builds confidence, although the numbers are, as I mentioned earlier--that you have a tremendous record of producing graduates that go into leadership positions. And, in fact, I see in front of me--it says here in terms of academic rankings in the US News & World Report survey, America's Best Colleges 2001, it's 16 percent of the top 25 colleges in America are women's colleges, including the number four school, which is Wellesley. Twelve percent of the 162 most selective national liberal arts colleges in the country, women's colleges, 10 percent of the top 10 regional liberal arts colleges in the North, 20 percent of the top 10 regional liberal arts colleges in the South, and the number one regional liberal arts college in the Midwest. That's an incredible record.

But, Colton Johnson, what's been the experience at Vassar? Is Vassar better off for having admitted men?

Dean JOHNSON: Oh, I think that's absolutely the case. But I think probably the reasons for our decision go back to a time in history, but also go back to some aspects of our geography. By the mid- to late '60s we had seen a number of kind of consortial attempts to maintain the strength of individual single-sex institutions, at the same recognize that the times have changed and it was important for the very best young men and women students to begin to study and work together as undergraduates.

We participated before our decision to go it alone, as it were, in a yearlong study that was financed by a couple of foundations, called the Vassar-Yale study, where both Vassar and Yale worked together to see if there might not be some way to recognize and honor their tradition and still work together in some kind of coordinate relationship.

When that failed, or didn't seem to be possible for any number of reasons, both Vassar and Yale decided to go it alone. At the same time, we've been in what's called the Twelve College Exchange, which has Wellesley and Smith, Mt. Holyoke, Amherst, Dartmouth, a number of schools, for a few years then, in which students were exchanging back and forth, and which at one point even faculty exchanges were envisioned. And I think Wellesley and some of the other women's colleges--Bryn Mawr, certainly, with your alma mater, were already engaged in exchange of one kind of other so that the classes and the social atmospheres on the campus were more open and more coeducational, if you will.

Vassar's nearest and only male school is West Point, and we somehow didn't feel that was going to be a very fruitful match. So I think partly our decision--and I salute it--I think we're an infinitely stronger and better campus and school than we were when I came to teach here--really was dictated not only by that mood of the times, but also by our geography.

WILLIAMS: All right. We're talking about women's colleges, and we're taking your calls at (800) 989-TALK. You can send us e-mail. We'd love to hear from you, especially if you graduated from one of the women's colleges. The address, totn@npr.org.

I'm Juan Williams. It's TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

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WILLIAMS: It's TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Juan Williams.

We're talking about women's colleges and their importance. The reason, of course, if the 125th anniversary of Wellesley College. Our guests are Diana Chapman Walsh, president of Wellesley College, which, as I mentioned, is celebrating its 125 anniversary this year; Colton Johnson, dean and English professor at Vassar College, which is now coed; and Suzanne Adams, incoming chair for the Mills College Board of Trustees. She's a member of the class of 1948. You're invited to join the discussion. Give us a call, (800) 989-TALK. Our e-mail address is totn@npr.org.

Diana Chapman Walsh, I wanted to ask you to respond to Colton Johnson, who said that Vassar is obviously a better school for having admitted men. Why wouldn't that be the case for Wellesley?

Ms. WALSH: Ah. Well, he also was very careful to point out that there were a particular set of circumstances in which it made sense for Vassar to make that decision. And right at the same time that Vassar was deliberating about whether or not to go coed, Wellesley took a very serious look at the same question and decided not to. And I think, as he said, our location, close to Boston, is one factor, so our students have easy access to Boston. Boston is such a college and university town. There's a lot of action here. There's a lot of excitement here. And I think that's helped us a lot.

I think the thing that's important to remember about the United States higher education system is that, unlike any other in the world, it has this enormous range of choice. The diversity in the higher education system in the US is one of its greatest assets. And students can choose from a very wide range of possibilities and think very deeply about who they are, who they want to be, what their gifts and talents are, what their ambitions are, and make an informed choice about where they can flourish and grow. So...

Dean JOHNSON: Juan, can I jump in on that?

Ms. WALSH: Yeah.

Dean JOHNSON: I couldn't agree more. It seems to me that is one of the splendors of our system. And one of the reasons that I think we've been very happy over the many, many years in the Twelve College Exchange is that sometimes a Wellesley student will come to our college and think, well, maybe all those qualities that we've been speaking of are best fostered here, and sometimes it happens the other way around, either at another coeducational school or at a woman's college. And I think that that is really, as Diana says, a great strength of the system.

WILLIAMS: Well, let me ask you about a very specific point here, Colton Johnson. I noticed in the research that it says now that women who are students at women's colleges major in math and science at twice the rate of women at coed schools. It also says that women at these all-female schools are twice as likely to receive doctorate degrees. Since Vassar changed from a single-sex school to a coed school, have those rates gone down for the women who attend Vassar?

Dean JOHNSON: Oh, no. No. I'm not--as you have said, I'm an English professor, not a statistician, but I think that there's something in figures like that that have to take in--that make you take into account the fact that there are so far many more coeducational schools and a wider range of coeducation schools in terms of their quality and their standards. No, as a matter of fact, the participation in the sciences and the participation in the graduate--both graduate study and professional study after graduation has risen certainly since the '50s and early '60s, and is in some fields at an all-time high for women from Vassar.

WILLIAMS: Suzanne Adams, I wanted to ask you about the experience at Mills College, which is in Oakland, California, for those of you who are unfamiliar with Mills, because as I remember, in 1990, there was a vote at Mills to make the school coed, but at the time, there were many people on campus who weren't so happy, as I recall. Is that right?

Ms. ADAMS: Oh, that's absolutely right. I think that Mills was doing the same thing that Vassar and Wellesley at one time did, which was considering what was the best future for its development. And the board had a number of committees studying different opportunities and made a vote which they thought was sounder for the future, to go coed. But the rebellion of students on campus, I think, came as quite an unexpected interest to the board. And ultimately it turned out that probably a majority of the faculty agreed with the students, that we should remain a single-sex college, and many, many alumni [sic] supported this. Now you know there were always people on the other side.

And I think that what both of your other participants have said is perfectly clear, that there are--no one kind of school is right for everyone, and it is a problem for the individual to think what kind of school will best develop his or her potential. And I think that having the choice of women's colleges for those who see this is as the best way for their growth is very, very important.

WILLIAMS: Well, I wonder about the alumni [sic]. Did they react negatively, and have they supported the idea that the school remains a single-sex institution?

Ms. ADAMS: No, they reacted quite positively at the time that--and have continued to do so since in terms of their support for the school financially and in action--I mean, in participation in school things.

WILLIAMS: What about you, Ms. Walsh? How are the alumni [sic] reacting these days? Are they more supportive?

Ms. WALSH: If I were to suggest that we go coed, they'd have my head on a platter, Juan. My life wouldn't be worth a plug nickel. We have enormous support from our alumni [sic] for who we are and what we're doing. It shows up in their connections back to our students. They are wonderful mentors. They make themselves available for students to come and shadow with them and try out different kinds of careers. They do recruiting for us of young women in high school. They do an amazing job for us of fund-raising and of financial support. We are ranked number five among all institutions of higher learning in alumni [sic] support for a student, which is an amazing thing. So they're voting with their pocketbooks, they're voting with their volunteer time, they're voting with their passion, and that's a big part of the story here.

The students who are on our campus have this sense that there are people out there who really believe in them, in what they're going to do in the world and who they're going to be for the world. And that is part of what I think inspires them, motivates them to do their very best. They know they've got to join this phalanx of these powerful women and mean something and contribute something in the world. So it's all part of a big picture, and the alumni [sic] are a big part of it.

WILLIAMS: Colton Johnson, how did the alums of Vassar react when the school shifted to allow men to enter?

Dean JOHNSON: Oh, I think there was a very, very difficult period there, and no heads are on platters, but knives were sharpened, I think. It was a very difficult thing, I think, to explain, particularly to recent classes. Some folks have dubbed those sour-grape classes, but I don't know that that's appropriate. But the alumni [sic] had--I think initially many alumni [sic] had a very difficult time. Of course, we've always had a great number of alumni [sic] on our board, and they were very supportive and understood the situation. As it's turned out, I think we have an extraordinary alumni support for the college as it is today. It certainly is strong or stronger than any I've known. And as it happens right now, coming this weekend, the board of trustees will be visiting us. And we have six members from that first pioneering class of '74, three men, three women, who are on our board now.

WILLIAMS: Let me take a call from Marsha(ph) in Seattle. Marsha, you're on TALK OF THE NATION. Welcome.

MARSHA (Caller): Hi there. Thanks for taking my call. I hope my cell phone battery doesn't die.

WILLIAMS: Me, too.

MARSHA: I guess I'm from one of those sour-grape classes. I was one of the last all-female classes from Wheaton College, and that was a really difficult place to be when it went coed. And I'm still very disappointed that it happened. And I'm very surprised to hear the statistics that women's colleges are so much more competitive now, because at the time, when Wheaton coed, it was for financial reasons due to the foreseen demographics.

WILLIAMS: Well, in fact, I think, Diana Walsh, you can confirm this, that applications are up, enrollment is up at women's colleges nationwide.

Ms. WALSH: Yes, it's true, and there was a period when we weren't sure. When the Ivy League went coed, almost all of it, some of them were to begin with, there was a period when we were concerned that maybe we couldn't hold our own. But then we bounced back and we've gotten stronger and stronger. And I think it's partly because the world has opened up for women in this wonderful, amazing way. And so these stories that we've been telling these past few minutes about graduates who are off doing such remarkable things are just such an inspiration for young women who want to come and be like them. So they kind of market the institution for us. We don't have to do it ourselves; it's the graduates who are out there doing this good work.

WILLIAMS: Let me take a call from Carly(ph) who's in Canandaigua, New York. Carly, welcome to TALK OF THE NATION.

CARLY (Caller): Hi. I'm a junior in high school and I'm looking at colleges. And on the top of my list is Barnard, which is all women. And my sister goes to Wells College, which is all women. But when I talk to my friends about women's colleges, they have all, like, negative opinions on it.

Ms. WALSH: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: What do they say to you?

CARLY: Just, like the lack of guys being there. How am I gonna handle it? And all that. And I have to constantly justify myself.

Dean JOHNSON: Hey, Carly, have you ever told them to look across the street from Barnard, it's called Columbia University.

CARLY: Yeah, that's exactly my argument all the time.

WILLIAMS: Well, Carly, what are you gonna do?

CARLY: I'm gonna ignore them and just go...

Ms. WALSH: Good

Dean JOHNSON: Stick by your guns.

CARLY: Yeah, go to the college that I want to no matter what they say.

Dean JOHNSON: I think we are unanimous in advising that.

WILLIAMS: Well, yes, I think we are. But I wanted to ask you, Carly, why is it that you're interested in a women's-only college?

CARLY: Well, I'm interested in Barnard particularly, because of the programs they have and because it's a small school where I won't, like, be ignored, as if I went to Columbia instead, where I'd probably be one of the masses and where they focus mainly on men.

WILLIAMS: So you think it's because the school is small or does it have to do with the fact that it's single sex that it's attractive to you?

CARLY: First of all, because it's small, but the single-sex has a great appeal, too, because I was raised by a feminist and my sister's a feminist, so a lot of the feminist qualities have rubbed off on me also.

WILLIAMS: Terrific. Well, good luck.

Ms. WALSH: I think you'd love Barnard.

Ms. ADAMS: I think--this is Suzanne Adams, and I think it's very interesting that she has put her finger on the two variables that seem to have most to do with student growth. And the small college environment turns out to be, whether it's coed or single sex--turns out to be a really powerful variable in the likelihood of the student realizing his full potential. And of course, as we have said earlier, for women, the women's college maximizes this possibility.

WILLIAMS: And it seems to me that in Carly's case, though, people were worried that somehow the environment might be sterile, that she wouldn't meet guys. What do you say to someone like that, Diana Walsh?

Ms. WALSH: Well--and it comes up all the time. I think one of the things that young people--young women who are juniors or seniors in high school, have to be rather brave and resolute, because their peers often do raise these issues. What I think it's about is that we Americans don't want to see gender inequality as a problem anymore, it's sort of an unwelcome intruder into our lives. We'd rather believe that all those problems are solved and we sort of kid ourselves into believing that. I often find that when I speak to the 20-somethings, late 20s, early 30s, young women, about--mention that I'm the president of Wellesley, they say, 'Wellesley, hmm, you know, I probably should have gone to Wellesley,' because they've been out in the world a little bit and seen that it isn't quite as completely smooth sailing as they imagined that it would be. So I think that's part of it.

What we say to somebody like Carly, is 'Come on up and take a look. Spend a day here. Talk to our students. Listen to their stories.' And that usually does the trick.

Dean JOHNSON: You know, I think another thing that might be added to this, too, is that many--all institutions like ours have an obligation to be sensitive to the particular needs of women in our society. Obviously having had 100 more years of single-sex education and having 50 percent of our faculty women and having so many of our heroes from the past be women, I think probably at Vassar there is a slightly different--or considerably different level of sensitivity to some of the issues that I think probably were on Carly's mind and others. And it seems that some of these qualities we're talking about, individual attention and that sort of thing, should always express themselves in recognition of certain societal biases, that our institutions really should be bound not to replicate.

WILLIAMS: You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. Suzanne Adams, one of the things that Carly said that struck my ears was she said, you know, 'My mom's a feminist,' and she believes that feminist traditions would be better promoted at a single-sex school, all-women school. Do you think that's true and is it wrong on the part of the general public to associate women's colleges with feminism?

Ms. ADAMS: I suppose that, yes, in one way it's true, because there are people there who are definitely interested in feminism and they're not looked down upon because of that interest. It's hard to say when your focus has been on one school, what's going on on other schools.

WILLIAMS: What about you, Diana, how would you respond to that?

Ms. WALSH: Well, yeah, it's a good question, Juan. And when I was driving down here, thinking about what I would say to you, I realized that there's a little bit of a tension in my own thinking because, on the one hand, if you ask, 'Is your job done? Or do you still have work to do?' I say, 'Our job isn't done, it's far from it.' And it's not because we're victims, it's not because we're angry, it's not because we're ungrateful for the gains that women have made or resentful of men. None of those things are true. Quite the contrary. We're celebrating, literally celebrating. But because we know now from real experience how much we women can do, how much we women can contribute in the world when we get a great education, when doors are opened to us, we can make a difference in this world. So that's, you know, one of my story lines.

But there is this other story line, and I do believe it and it is the feminist story line. And it's not an angry or bitter or victimized one, but there is work still to be done for women. The sex-based inequality still exists, sex-based violence are facts of life. There are cultural forces that perpetuate those things and there is widespread denial of those things much as there is with race in our country. And those--you know, we can look at numbers, you asked me about numbers at the beginning, you know, something like 95 percent of the senior corporate executives and something like 85 percent of elected office holders in our country are men, something like two-thirds of adults in our country who are poor are women. There are more women pursuing traditional male roles, but there are far fewer men pursuing traditionally female roles. So women are doing more of the work.

So, you know, these things are realities. We're not bitter or angry about it, but there is work still to be done and there is this denial. And women's colleges are paying attention to those issues for sure.

WILLIAMS: All right. Let me take a call from Brian who's in North Andover, Massachusetts. Brian, you're on TALK OF THE NATION. Welcome.

BRIAN (Caller): Hi, Juan, it's a great show. And very well timed given the fact that there are lots of young women out there just now trying to figure out what to do with themselves next year. I actually graduated from Vassar in 1982. And at that point, looking around, you wouldn't have noticed that it was a woman's college some 10 or so years before that. The ratio was pretty close to 50:50, but there was this very palpable sense of a traditional alive. And it was a great thing for me. 1982 wasn't exactly the dark ages, but coming from where I was coming from, I still had a lot to learn about women's education.

WILLIAMS: Well, I'm short on time but I want to quickly ask you to put in a few words, what was the difference?

BRIAN: I think where it was clearest to me was in the classroom, being with a group of men and women, in a classroom in which women seemed to feel they had as much right to speak and be heard, and that their education was just as important as that of men. And I think that had to do with women choosing a place with a tradition like Vassar's, which was still very much alive at that point.

WILLIAMS: Thank you so much for your call, Brian.

Dean JOHNSON: If Brian had hung around for about four more years, his president would have been a Wellesley graduate who's still our president, and is a wonderful role model for us all.

WILLIAMS: We're talking about the role of single-sex institutions in higher education. You can continue this discussion online, go to npr.org, then scroll down to TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Juan Williams, it's TALK OF THE ATION from NPR News.

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WILLIAMS: It's TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Juan Williams. Join guest host Mara Liasson tomorrow when she talks with a group of independent bookstore owners. They'll discuss a lawsuit recently settled between the American Booksellers Association and two national chain stores. How can independent bookstores stay alive in an increasingly competitive market? That's tomorrow on TALK OF THE NATION with guest host Mara Liasson.

Today we're talking about the place of women's colleges in the academic landscape. Our guests are Diana Chapman Walsh, president of Wellesley College; Colton Johnson, dean of Vassar College, which went coed over 30 years ago; and Suzanne Adams, incoming chair for Mills College board of trustees.

Join the conversation, (800) 989-TALK. Our e-mail address is totn@npr.org.

Let's take a call from Day(ph)--I think it's Day or Dan in Tyler, Texas. Dan, you're on TALK OF THE NATION. Welcome.

DAY (Caller): Hi, Juan. Great show.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

DAY: And the name is Day.

WILLIAMS: Day, OK.

DAY: I want to let you know that I'm married to a girls' school--girls' college girl for the last 12 years, and I'm a huge fan. She graduated from Hollins College in Roanoke, Virginia in 1984, as did her grandmother in 1923. And I just find women's college women to be self-confident and brash, opinionated and a lot of fun to be around.

WILLIAMS: Now I was gonna say, Day, that some of those opinionated, brash women might say, 'Don't call it a girls' school.'

DAY: Well, that's what my wife calls it. She calls it a girls'--she's a girls' school girl is what she says.

WILLIAMS: And do you know why she went there and how did you meet her since you didn't obviously meet her at college?

DAY: Well, we grew up in Dallas in the same community. And I just knew her. And I watched her--kept my eye on her going through college. And the longer she was in a women's college, the more I grew to like her.

WILLIAMS: No kidding. All right. Well, thanks for your call.

DAY: And I just wanted to let you know that Hollins, you know, graduated Ann Compton from ABC and Elizabeth Forsythe Haley, so there's some really quality women leaders coming out of these women's colleges. And my prediction is that our first US president will be a women's college graduate.

WILLIAMS: Well, that's not far from reality, I mean, if you think Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Ms. WALSH: A lot of us expect that day.

Ms. ADAMS: Right.

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

Ms. WALSH: Well, Day, it takes a special man to appreciate all of us, these strong women. Our students have a T-shirt--this is Diana Walsh speaking again--our students have a T-shirt that's a best seller. It says, 'We're not a girls' school without men, we're a women's college without boys.'

(Soundbite of laughter)

WILLIAMS: Well, how about that? Let's take a call from overseas. Let's go to Erin(ph), who's in Otterburg, Germany. Erin, you're on TALK OF THE NATION. Welcome.

ERIN (Caller): Hello.

WILLIAMS: Hi.

ERIN: How are you?

WILLIAMS: Fine, thanks. How are you doing?

ERIN: Good.

WILLIAMS: Go right ahead, Erin.

ERIN: Oh, I just wanted to say that I was a graduate of Randolph-Macon Woman's College, and it was a wonderful experience. I learned an awful lot from my professors and I loved the small school environment. I excelled in the classes that they offered and particularly went because I was pre-med and wanted the attention of the professors as well as I wanted to do my own experiments in the lab and be able to take care of myself and learn that way.

And in order to address the social concerns of the young women who might be interested in attending, there's a lot that you can do in college and there are a lot of opportunities that are coed. If you're at a women's college, so will road trip the men to see you and as you will road trip to see them.

WILLIAMS: Well, Erin, what would you say to boys who say, 'Well, gee, maybe I should go to an all-boys school if Erin has such good things to say about an all-girls school'?

ERIN: Oh, that's fine. I visited a few men's colleges.

WILLIAMS: All right, well, thanks for your...

ERIN: It's a good opportunity for all students.

WILLIAMS: All right.

ERIN: If they choose and that's the good thing that your speakers talked about, it's a choice. It's not for everyone, but it is a very good choice to make if it's right for you.

WILLIAMS: Thanks again.

ERIN: You're welcome.

WILLIAMS: Let me go to Amber who's in Redmond, Washington. Amber, you're on TALK OF THE NATION. Welcome.

AMBER (Caller): Oh, thank you. I was one of the sour grapes classes at Wheaton College as well. I remember the announcement. I remember the president coming in and just seating us all in the chapel and telling us it was a red letter day. And we went to the trustees, we did everything we could to say, 'Hey, we will help with recruitment. We will do what it takes to keep this place the place that makes it so special.' And they did not take advantage of that and they've been coed ever since. And my money has gone to Smith ever since.

WILLIAMS: Well, Amber, do you think that Wheaton is a lesser quality school because it admits men?

AMBER: I think it's a different school. And I benefited from the single-sex education I received at Wheaton. And I believe that that's the kind of education I'd like to support. And because Wheaton does not offer that any longer, I don't support it.

WILLIAMS: By the way, what's the big distinction--what is it about a single-sex school that, for you, made the big difference?

AMBER: For me it was being able to participate in the (technical difficulties) male activities without having to compete with the men to do it because, for instance, doing (technical difficulties) I'd participated in high school at a large high school. And I lost to the captain of the football team because he was more popular. At Wheaton, I participated in those kind of activities and got, you know, considered on the grounds of was I qualified? And that confidence has really helped me a lot in my career since then.

WILLIAMS: All right. Well, thanks for your call, Amber.

AMBER: Thank you.

WILLIAMS: Let's go to Henry who's in Reno, Nevada. Henry, you're on TALK OF THE NATION, welcome.

HENRY (Caller): I'm pleased to be. I wanted to say this, that amongst my doctorates, one of them was on the subject called The Analysis of Teaching. And we discovered that women think differently from men. The procedure of thinking was different. As a matter of fact, let me put it this way, men very often will read a book, memorize what it says whereas the woman will say, 'I wonder why it happens that way?' One is reasoning, the other is memorizing.

WILLIAMS: Hmm. So women have a greater faculty for critical thinking it sounds like.

HENRY: Well, it becomes very complicated. I'm just touching the surface. And a very good example is a funny thing--I think you'll appreciate this. A roomful of people sitting there, and on the left side someone says, 'Oh, my God, look!' Everyone will turn to the left to see what it was except one person. That's a Hungarian. He looks the other way to find out, 'What is it they didn't want me to see?' You know, this is two types of thinking. And women--of course, men hate me for this--women, I've found out, are smarter than men. It starts when they're three or four years old with the big brother. But basically if a women's college has all women, they hold a procedure of thinking, the whole idea of everything affects the teaching systems and the interests and the discussions that they have between themselves as against men who think entirely a different way.

WILLIAMS: Thanks for your call, Henry. Suzanne Adams, I wanted to ask you about the history here. A lot of the normal schools around the country, the teacher schools, started out as women's colleges. But of course, they've changed, they've gone now to coed. Was Mills College initially a teachers school?

Ms. ADAMS: No, it's always been a liberal arts school since it became a college. They do have--the one professional program they've had for years is a graduate program in education. And it has done--I mean, this is a department that's done some really extraordinary pioneering things and right now is playing a very significant role in assisting the Brooklyn Public Schools to improve instruction. But it was not predominantly for the purpose of creating educators.

WILLIAMS: And in terms of some of the remaining schools that are single-sex, female schools, I think that the traditions are more in terms of liberal arts than they are in terms of teaching or nursing or any of the what would be sort of traditional female roles in corporate life. Is that right?

Ms. ADAMS: I think that's true. And I think that the liberal arts emphasis in smaller colleges and in women's colleges is a tremendously significant thing for the educational spectrum in this country. We talked awhile ago about the range of choices in the US higher education field. And I think that the focus on liberal arts is apt to get shunted aside in larger universities and colleges that have professional--the interest in developing professional schools. And it turns out that the most flexible and able to change people in the adult world are those with a liberal arts background. So this is a very desirable thing to preserve in a forum that has continuing development, which is what liberal arts gets in the liberal arts college.

WILLIAMS: Let me take a call from the neighborhood of Mills College, Oakland, California. Elizabeth, you're on TALK OF THE NATION. Welcome.

ELIZABETH: Hi, thanks for having me. I just had a comment from before when the high school student called about--talking about choosing a women's college, and also the issue of feminists. And I actually graduated from Wellesley College in the mid-'80s and went to Wesleyan University as part of a 12 college exchange program as a junior. And one reason I went there as a junior in college was because I was wanting to go where there was more political activity and more feminists. And I was actually frustrated that Wellesley, from what I could see as a student, was not the hotbed of feminism in the Boston area. So I actually went to Wesleyan and had a wonderful year. But one thing I did learn at Wesleyan was that Wellesley was feminist and had a subtle form of feminism. And that subtle form has probably helped me more than anything else. And that was...

WILLIAMS: You know what, Elizabeth? I'm totally confused.

ELIZABETH: OK.

WILLIAMS: Because I'm trying to think, 'How do you define feminism?' What--when you said Wellesley wasn't feminist, what do you mean?

ELIZABETH: I said the student body didn't seem to be as interested in women's issues and promoting women. This was in the mid-'80s. It was pretty apathetic when it came to discrimination and--but what I found was the faculty, having faculty that were primarily women, having an administration that was primarily women, was probably one of the greatest things I could see in terms of promoting women and showing women that we can really do it. Because when I went to Wesleyan in the mid-'80s, there were not many women on the faculty who were tenured.

WILLIAMS: So you had a lack of role models.

ELIZABETH: You had a lack of role models at a coed school.

WILLIAMS: Thanks so much for your call, Elizabeth.

ELIZABETH: You're welcome.

WILLIAMS: You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. Go right ahead.

Ms. ADAMS: I'd like to comment on Elizabeth's call, Juan.

WILLIAMS: Yes, Ms. Adams.

Ms. ADAMS: I think it's very interesting that she identified feminism as somehow a very visible and striving and focused kind of activity, which indeed it is, in coed colleges. Because why would you not struggle if you felt you were being overlooked? Now I think in women's colleges, women in some ways, can relax and recognize they're there to develop themselves and every effort is being made to help them do that. And this is, of course, the most powerful form of feminism.

WILLIAMS: Here's an e-mail I want to read to all of you. It comes from Rebus(ph) in San Francisco. And Rebus writes, 'If there are huge benefits for women to go to an all-women's college, what are the drawbacks for women to go to a coed college?' Colton Johnson.

Dean JOHNSON: Well, I don't know. The broad range of coed colleges, it seems to me, some of the issues that have been raised in our recent conversation about how feminism expresses itself, the notion of a woman feeling particularly empowered because of her teachers and mentors are women. I think those are elements that probably should be emphasized in a lot of settings. The drawbacks I think would rest upon the individual student's choice, if she feels that her needs are particularly going to be met in the atmosphere that Diana describes, then certainly there are wonderful opportunities for her if in fact she'd like test and try some of those ideas and some of those possibilities out in a coeducational atmosphere that is sensitive to the fact that these are real issues that need to be discussed, then perhaps the appropriate coeducational setting would be the better one.

WILLIAMS: Diana, I have one last e-mail. It comes from Peter in Minneapolis. And we're short on time so please give me a quick answer.

Ms. WALSH: OK.

WILLIAMS: 'Legally speaking how do women's colleges maintain their gender exclusivity when traditionally all-male schools such as the Citadel, have lost their battles to maintain that distinction?'

Ms. WALSH: Well, the short answer is that the Citadel and the VMI were state-funded, they're state institutions. They're not private institutions. They could have gone private and stayed all male.

WILLIAMS: Thank you so much. Diana Chapman Walsh, president of Wellesley College, she joined us from member station WBUR in Boston; Colton Johnson, dean of Vassar College, he joined us by phone from his office in Poughkeepsie, New York. And Suzanne Adams, she's the incoming chair of the Mills College board of trustees. She joined us from radio station KPFA in Berkeley, California.

In Washington, I'm Juan Williams, NPR News.

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Copyright 2001 National Public Radio®. The news report by NPR's Juan Williams was originally broadcast on National Public Radio's "Talk of the Nation®" on May 2, 2001, and is used with the permission of National Public Radio, Inc. Any unauthorized duplication is strictly prohibited. For further information, please contact NPR's Permissions Coordinator at (202) 513-2000.